[mgp-users 01161] Re: Sam's Improvements; my MGP macro processor

[Tim Maher <tim@consultix-inc.com>]

On Tue, May 27, 2003 at 05:44:33PM -0400, Sam Steingold wrote:
> > * In message <m3ptm46qdv.fsf@totally-fudged-out-message-id>
> > * On the subject of "[mgp-users 01157] Sam's Improvements; my
> >   MGP macro processor"
> > * Sent on Mon, 26 May 2003 21:54:02 -0700
> > * Honorable Tim Maher <tim@consultix-inc.com> writes:
> >
> > First of all, this is free software you're complaining about,
> > supported primarily by its developer who undoubtedly has many
> > other higher priorities, and who has already provided you with
> > something useful on an as-is basis.
>
> I contribute to several Free Software projects on a regular
> basis. GNU Emacs (http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/), CLISP
> (http://clisp.cons.org), CLOCC (http://clocc.sf.net).

Great!

> Do _you_?

My recent contributions have been to a little scripting language
called Perl.

But what's your point? An attempt at technical one-upmanship?
*My* point was that you're welcome to submit patches to MGP if
you wish, so I'm glad to hear that you're experienced with that
aspect of open-source culture.

> What makes you think that Yoshifumi Nishida needs your
> protection from me?

It was a hunch. What makes you think I'm wrong? 8-}

> I do appreciate the work Yoshifumi Nishida did.

Glad to hear that.

> Nevertheless, mgp does have certain bugs, including, IMNSHO,
> some bugs in the mgp file format design.

I'm disinclined to call design shortcomings bugs, since I think
that term is better reserved for implementation shortcomings. MGP
certainly does have bugs, but in my view the larger problem is
that it's just too hard to control font, color, and size changes,
and to arrange for file inclusions, which is what I've addressed
in my MGP::Preprocessor module.

> > And please remember, the develop is not a native speaker of
> > English.
> Neither am I.

Then you might be familiar with the miscommunication problems that
are likely to arise when one uses emotionally charged evaluative
terms to describe problems, such as "horrible", rather than
more descriptive ones, such as "undesirable", or "problematic".
That's what caught my attention, and started this thread between us.
(I learned this lesson the hard way, teaching Unix and Perl classes
overseas.)

> > I've written an mgp preprocessor (about 500 lines of Perl)
> > that lets you change fonts and styles using a simple markup
> > language that's a bit like POD, troff, and HTML. You can also
> > include files (even outside the preamble), and display code
> > samples with italicized comments.
>
> I think this is the wrong direction. Why not just use XML for
> the mgp format? That would solve most problems I experienced.

I don't see my role as making wholesale changes to the program,
such as redefining the file format, but instead making it more
convenient to generate the directives. And in any case, I *like*
the fact that MGP is based on a simple text format that's easy to
read and edit.  But if somebody wants to make an XML version, with a
portable front-end that still lets me easily edit my presentations
in vim or Emacs in one window while viewing the result in the
other (mgp-) window, I'll be happy to try it out 8-}.

> Implications:
>
> 1. using MathML instead of TeX for formulas.
>
> 2. separate parsing from the actual presentation code by using
>    libxml
>
> 3. the user can use entities to define variables
>
> 4. converting to PS/HTML/PDF &c is just a matter of an XSL
>    stylesheet

You're talking about a complete redesign of the presentation-file
format, which would certainly have some merits, but on the other hand
most MGP users seem to be pretty content with what they've already
got, and just want some bugs fixed and an easier way to generate
the *.mgp file.  But more power to you if you take on that project.

As a fan of MGP, I thank you for your interest in improving it,
which I hope will lead to some enhancements down the road.

Now Sam, for the benefit of the list-subscribers, who are not used
to non-zero quantities of monthly traffic 8-{, I suggest that we
continue the technical aspects of our discussions on-line, and the
personal aspects off-line.

> Sam Steingold (http://www.podval.org/~sds) running RedHat9
> GNU/Linux <http://www.camera.org> <http://www.iris.org.il>
> <http://www.memri.org/> <http://www.mideasttruth.com/>
> <http://www.palestine-central.com/links.html> My other CAR
> is a CDR.

-Tim
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